Board Thread:The Last Sovereign Discussion/@comment-39332473-20190808194309/@comment-39120971-20191213131639

Apologies in advance for the incoming wall of text (and tons of quotes).

The Scoutman wrote: "To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

At this point I'm pretty convinced there will be no war against the Lustlord, but I also don't think liberating Rodak will be just a matter of assassinating him either. I think we will turn Rodak against him and make him lose his kingdom, forcing him to retreat to some Tower fortress he has with his elite Tower orcs where then he will finally be dealt with.

Aside from the immigration projects Nalili suggested at the end of Chapter 4, I'm thinking Rodak might be extremely vulnerable on the economical aspect, everything we know about Rodak suggests that most of it is a frozen wasteland, also during the gathering we discovered that the Lustlord spends a lot of money on vanity projects.

Everything suggests their wealth is due to some kind of Tower foulplay, the Lustlord figured out a way of getting large ammounts of Sx from the Tower, and the only reason why his country isn't a inflationary mess is due to the temporary nature of Sx, which allows them to stay wealthy while trading with other nations. But it does make them extremely vulnerable to an embargo. Right now we control Erosia, Rodak is hostile to Ghenalon, the Lustlord has no known allies in the other continents, if we could coordinate to restrict trade on the borders of Rodak, their economy would probably collapse in a matter of days. DukeLeto7 wrote: Quick note to Scoutman.

I believe Xerces suggested that the Lustlord uses Tower magic to prop up his economy, but there's no reason to suppose that economic support takes the form generating specie for foreign trade. In fact, I'd say Fheliel's agenda at the Gathering suggests Rodak has no significant foreign trade.

So the Lustlord is using Tower magic conjure up goods and (presumably) for construction. I think DukeLeto's argument more convincing here, that the Lustlord actually generates the goods themselves and whatever else he might need directly through Tower magic, meaning there's no need for amassing currency and trading with foreign countries, making an embargo ineffective.

As for another war, I do believe that we shoud expect at least one final conflict before chapter 5 wraps up one that gives our army a workout, but I doubt it woud be conquering Rodak, since I expect Tanurak and/or the Anak to be our final enemies. Therefore, I suspect Simon and his gang will deal with Lustlord directly while Fheliel and/or the Empress defuse Rodak. Our treatment of Erosians and the investments we make might start another immigration effort similar to how certain projects from the House of Petitions helped prior to the 3AW, but I just don't see Rodak and the Lustlord as being worth keeping for the final challenge.

Numbus26 wrote:

Others have disputed Hester as Ivala's captor for a simple reason—Ivala's capture appears to have been going on for a long time, even from the perspective of the goddesses themselves. I think I've managed to introduce some doubt as to the length of Ivala's capture via the Tanurak timeline, at least enough for me, but again, we don't know how long Tanurak's been exiled or even how old Ulrissa is. But even if that part of the theory falls through, someone else has mentioned an excellent explanation for it. While Mithryn first mentions Ivala's captors, in chapter 4 she refers to Ivala's captor, singular. Whether this was a mistake or intentional, I think there's an explanation. Ivala's captor, in truth, may not be one person at all, but the institution of the church that's been built.

We're told recently that divine shards draw power from the environment, and the prevailing theory here seems to be that, perhaps via the Tower and how power is drawn from it, divine shards may gain power through faith, similar to how IK shards draw power through sexual bonds. But IK shards also release energy through sexual magic, and there's no reason for divine shards to be any different. So then, is Ivala's prison not built via actual bonds, but by the reciprocal nature of the 'faith bonds' she built with her followers that massively expanded over time? I think it's a nice theory, at least, but there's holes in it. Mainly that Ivala seems to be relying on Simon to somehow release her, given her conversation with Mithryn, and in this theory Ivala's release would necessitate destroying her church, and I don't think Simon's likely to do that.

Instead, I think the more likely theory is that whoever Ivala's captor is; the Church as a whole, Hester, the King of Aram, or someone else entirely, is keeping her captured by draining her shard's energy into massive expenditures like Ivala's Wall or the Crystal of Ivala. Or maybe a different way of fracturing divine power into many shards that somehow spread themselves across a wide space, unlikely to be gathered by one person and restored.

In case that wasn't clear, I'm talking about the Chosen. The main drive for this theory is the 'broken' Chosen we see in Stineford in the latest update, and his statement that "They needed a flawed vessel." This, to me, explains a lot about why the Chosen have so many… personality quirks. The Chosen are created via an autonomous process, seeking out flawed youths in search of power and giving it to them—recall Mestan's statement in Eustrin: "Giving a grunt power doesn't make him better, it just makes a grunt with too much power." The Chosen were never meant to change anything. Simon's cycle of trying to get a Chosen enough power to make him unstoppable was doomed from the start—they're chosen (get it?) specifically to get themselves killed and possibly annoy greater powers in the process. Their swords—the Shining Blades—aren't actually normal swords, if I'm guessing right. They're distilled power chipped off of a divine shard, and they also serve as a channel to allow the Chosen to draw divine magic and heal their wounds(I don't think we've ever seen a Chosen use any other form of magic, but that might not be interestind to see). The only way for a Chosen to escape this 'destiny', as far as we know, is giving up their power voluntarily; this also seems to stop the personality changes that Chosen undergo that make them more reckless, given Kalant.

So if the Chosen draw power from Ivala, forcefully draining her shard, then what about the one in Rodak we see during the Gathering? Every other Chosen we've seen is from Arclent, and according to Hester and Sarai, manifest near Incubus Kings. And there's also the Tower orc with the Shining Sword we see during the war that Aka mentions feels like a Chosen. What do you guys think is up with those? I think you're onto something interesting here, Numbus 26. Though I won't address every point (it was a really long post after all) and I am suspicious of shortening the timeline to squeeze Tanurak and Ulrissa with the war where Wendis, Simon and Hilstara fought the younger AoA's forces (if Tanurak was active that recently, then Simon must have heard something about his activities causing chaos around the world, yet Simon and the others only learn of him through Ulrissa) but your ideas for Ivala's captors (or more recently the lone captor) and the Chosen with their Shining Swords sound more probable. I'll comment on them further with later quotes, though.

The Scoutman wrote: @Numbus26

I actually like the idea that Ivala's captors might be no single entity at all, faith itself is what is holding her captive because Ivalan doctrine treats her as an untouchable entity, transcendental to the point where she couldn't even exist in the real world and so she doesn't, instead confined to a secluded corner of the Tower...so what if that's the purpose of fake Ivala? What if what Ivala meant by "I can notify my captors" is overhauling her image to her believers, people will see fake Ivala and start believing on a much more active and tangible Ivala, and so that change in people's faith will allow her to return to the world. This is a very fascinating idea, though I am afraid that everything we've seen so far in the game goes against it, in that Goddesses are consistent regardless of their believers' ideas about their nature, otherwise it would be really difficult for the GoM to survive and recreate her church starting from a small underground cult in Yhilin. On the other hand, as far as limiting the powers and influence of Goddesses upon the world based on their believers and/or how much they pray would explain why some Goddesses were unable to intervene yet survived in isolation. Of course, with the sheer numbers belonging to the Church of Ivala, Ivala herself isn't at risk of being forgotten, but the schisms and contradictory views concerning her nature and matters of doctrine may (like I said above, in my other long post) rob her of the energy that comes with prayers, allowing somebody else (her captor?) to use it for their own plans.

The Scoutman wrote:

I think the Chosen in Rodak was just as Simon says, never underestimate a Chosen's ability to get himself lost, he somehow got lost and ended up sailing to Rodak after the Lustlord. The Tower orc I think it is just proof that, once again, the Lustlord can't come up with a single original thing, I think he figured out what the Chosen were, but instead of realizing they were just a way of releasing accumulated energy, he actually thought they were meant to be the REAL best use of power. Not sure what to make about it actually dropping a Shining Sword though, you'd think they would be made out of divine energy, but maybe they are made of a form of power that transcends lust and purity, kinda scary if the Lustlord figured out how to achieve that, but good thing he is too incompetent to do anything threatening with it. Numbus26 wrote: That's an angle. While I'm not sure the Lustlord actually knows what the Chosen are or who's creating them—given how much effort Simon's group had to go through to get even a solid lead, whoever's creating Chosen has been doing so for a while and is very good at covering their tracks—I think he may have found a similar way of creating divine power in the same fashion as the Chosen's swords, maybe even using the Chosen kept 'preserved' in Rodak near the Gathering grounds as a reference. It would fit with why the tower orcs felt like a Chosen to Aka, since he likely had, if not only the one, very few examples to work off of when creating his magically-infused warriors, and might not have been able to isolate what made the Chosen uniquely able to channel Ivala's power through the blade.

Which leads me to another interesting question; why can only the Chosen use the Shining Swords? It would follow from the theory above that they are first fundamentally transformed by Ivala's power, which both imparts the standard Chosen mentality and makes them able to use the Shining Swords. But then there's the Eustrin Armor Merchant, who states that when Aram comissioned them for Shining Armor, they also requested 'blades in a similar style'. While I don't think that those blades would be 'true' Shining Swords, the way that some members of the party can actually equip the Eustrin Shining Armor, they might be close, imitations of the thing. Would those blades channel Ivala's power in a similar way? Is that why the Holy Legion failed—was their recklessness in part coming from them being drawn into being llike the Chosen, who are fated to die? Again, really fascinating speculation here. I'm not sure just how much the Lustlord understands about the Chosen and their power, but I'm leaning towards him knowing more rather than less if he is able to bestow his Rodak orcs with that power to use against Simon and his group. We have yet to see just how far his research and tower-delving takes him, but if you can infuse Orcs with that blessing, then I can't shake off one conclusion in particular: this process is completely separate from Ivala's wishes. I mean, I could see somebody in Aram pleading with Ivala for help, or abusing her permission after she'd given her word to make more and more Chosen than she'd ever intended, but if the Lustlord can seize and repurpose that power as he pleases, then there's no way Ivala would've willingly agreed to assist him - so he must have wrested that power away by force. And if it's still Ivala's real power that was stripped from her to power the orcs... then the Chosen-creation process is getting darker by the minute.

Maldon k wrote: Here's my take on all that.

The person behind the chosen is someone from Aram (and most likely the captor of ivala), has significant political capital in there, and is a tower walker. that's basic enough, but I think this person is not a high priestess, a character we know or aramite royalty, but someone like simon or entila, a shadow puppeteer, but that hasn't succeded and after tanurak and Ivala meet, is starting to get frustrated and will act in an aggresive way that will trigger the great war.

And about the lustlord and the chosen.

The chosen have undeniable power, even if they're made as a way to deplete it as you say, so when a random chosen gets to rodak and fights the lustlord, the lustlord studies this chosen and understands what it is, and copies the process to power up his orcs.

but how does this work? This is going to be a big jump, but maybe he has a divine shard somewhere, and he uses it the same way the captor uses ivala to make chosen I like that idea of a shadow puppeteer, Maldon k. I wouldn't mind that sort of twist, although personally I am hoping that we'll run into that by investigating the more obvious suspects, like the King of Aram and the two High Priestesses, then start finding clues that there is more going on than it seems, and only late find the real mastermind pulling the strings.

As for the Lustlord hiding a divine shard somewhere? Ehh, I find that unlikely. That shard would come into conflict with his soul shard and I highly doubt he could trust somebody else to hold onto the divine shard for him and not challenge his rule - or at least, the Lustlord wouldn't cooperate with someone like that, who could betray him at an opportune moment, when he himself is such a model opportunist.

The Fulminato wrote: the party find a single shining sword in the holy plane (a plane carina say similar to ivala, "It feels... not like Ivala, but... something similar. Not holy, but sacred.") and the discovery of the blade is "fitting" from the plane itself.

shining sword are created from the tower, if not by the tower itself by someone able to gather raw tower materials and refine in a usable weapon. wynn describe the sword the party find in the zirantian's pyramid "This is not my field. But I think this is a useful little piece of refined power". the chosen are created by tower-grade magic, and perhaps a big chunk of divine power is required and thus let them be able to use the sword. and i don't think the chosen the lustlord destroyed be the first thing he seen, because after killing it he said "something about his power not being allowed to return and bound the corpse here, as if he thought it might come back." he meddle in the tower for a long time, but as everything he does very small e petty, sabitha for example never hear of him.

i hope in a couple of update (the aram one) we finaly have some definitive asnwer about chosen and shining swords. At this point I'm fairly convinced that the Shining Swords are the result of tower magic, unless we uncover some new evidence to the contrary. But given that the blacksmiths in Eustrin have forged both armor and swords for Aram, I'm leaning towards that tower magic being applied only post-forging, as their unique blessing (just like when forging Aka's Custom Knife, we got the ore and forged it into a blade, then finished by Enchanting it) that also makes the swords (and armors) shine.

Beyond that, I'd like to pose this suggestion: the key difference between the Shining Swords and true divine shards (and soul shards for that matter) is that they hold no power of their own, as in, they are not a power source that lets their wielders cast divine magic, heal wounds and so on. Instead, I think these Shining Swords are basically, hmm... something like open power channels, they drain power from Ivala and pour it into their wielder, who in turn is transformed by the raw divine power overflowing through their body. Thus when separated from their Shining Sword, a Chosen would eventually lose their powers (and why it's possible for Kalant to give up the power and survive). This also explains how the Lustlord can use this power, the Shining Sword remains an open channel, and by studying this channel the Lustlord can find a source of great power and tap into it, using it to transform his Orcs even without understanding how these Shining Swords are created or the Chosen-making process itself, merely imitating it to get the results he wants.

Alright, this post is long enough already so I'll finish right here. Thank you for reading this far. ^_^